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	<title>Comments on: On contrastive substitution and the Greek verb</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/</link>
	<description>Removing the mystery from discourse grammar</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Runge</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-3208</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Runge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2011 23:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-3208</guid>
		<description>There are indeed languages that do not grammaticalize temporal information in the verb, they do it some other way. Every language has the same basic tasks to accomplish, but each places a different value on things like time. It is very important in the English system, yet Stephen Wallace&#039;s work shows that even here it can play second fiddle to other interests. And because it does so does not negate the presence temporal semantics in the verb form. Bear in mind as well that my claims about temporal semantics in Greek are restricted to the indicative mood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are indeed languages that do not grammaticalize temporal information in the verb, they do it some other way. Every language has the same basic tasks to accomplish, but each places a different value on things like time. It is very important in the English system, yet Stephen Wallace&#8217;s work shows that even here it can play second fiddle to other interests. And because it does so does not negate the presence temporal semantics in the verb form. Bear in mind as well that my claims about temporal semantics in Greek are restricted to the indicative mood.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Lovell</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-3206</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Lovell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2011 22:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-3206</guid>
		<description>This article is very interesting as I have been trying to work out how one might view the &quot;unexpected usages&quot; of time as some sort of pragmatic implication if time was grammaticalised in the tense-form, as Gentry (seems to) suggest.

What I find difficult about this view is that if aspect and tense are so inextricably bound up can there be a language (say Hebrew for e.g.) that was completely aspectual?

Jared</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article is very interesting as I have been trying to work out how one might view the &#8220;unexpected usages&#8221; of time as some sort of pragmatic implication if time was grammaticalised in the tense-form, as Gentry (seems to) suggest.</p>
<p>What I find difficult about this view is that if aspect and tense are so inextricably bound up can there be a language (say Hebrew for e.g.) that was completely aspectual?</p>
<p>Jared</p>
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		<title>By: Critique of Porter&#8217;s Verbal Aspect Theory &#171; Ad Fontes</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-1615</link>
		<dc:creator>Critique of Porter&#8217;s Verbal Aspect Theory &#171; Ad Fontes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 00:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-1615</guid>
		<description>[...] subject to comment.  I will give the highlights but it might just be best for you to go and read the post [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] subject to comment.  I will give the highlights but it might just be best for you to go and read the post [...]</p>
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		<title>By: On the need for claiming a third plane of discourse in Greek &#124; NT Discourse</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-1480</link>
		<dc:creator>On the need for claiming a third plane of discourse in Greek &#124; NT Discourse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-1480</guid>
		<description>[...] plane of discourse. The limitations are not based on the binary nature of the system, but upon the complexity of the relationship between tense, aspect and mood in language on the one hand, and the impact of genre-specific factors on the other hand. These are [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] plane of discourse. The limitations are not based on the binary nature of the system, but upon the complexity of the relationship between tense, aspect and mood in language on the one hand, and the impact of genre-specific factors on the other hand. These are [...]</p>
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		<title>By: On background and foreground versus frontground in Greek &#124; NT Discourse</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-1469</link>
		<dc:creator>On background and foreground versus frontground in Greek &#124; NT Discourse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-1469</guid>
		<description>[...] on a series critiquing Stan Porter&#8217;s theoretical framework for describing verbal aspect. The first post presented overlooked research from the core literature he cites on just how complex and interwoven [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on a series critiquing Stan Porter&#8217;s theoretical framework for describing verbal aspect. The first post presented overlooked research from the core literature he cites on just how complex and interwoven [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-1434</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-1434</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s my wife.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s my wife.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-1433</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-1433</guid>
		<description>Steve, your want for tense examples reminded me of a paper I read last year. Spyridoula Bella published an article in the Journal of Greek Linguistics entitled: Cognitive motivation and Pragmatic functions of the Greek deictics (2005). 

Bella writes, “in extended functions [of deixis] the traditional notions of proximity and distance are interpreted as metaphorical mappings from the physical to the conceptual domain” (40). Using relevance and distance, and both standard and extended uses of deictic elements, Bella discusses deictic tense in Modern Greek (40). 
	With examples from natural speech, she argues that present tense encodes prominence because the content is considered salient between speaker and audience. She examines situations such as one in which her co-worker used present tense to tell her about a man she liked, but past tense to explain who the same man was to another co-worker. The “proximal” present brings the subject toward deictic centre because it is shared information between the speaker and Bella. She used past tense to encode distant, less relevant information to the second co-worker because the content was not salient to their relationship. 
	In another case, which I found to be prominent in English as well, Bella describes how the past tense is used to distance information, thus communicating politeness in a sensitive context. A student visits a professor’s office during non-office hours, the student addresses the professor in this way: “I wanted to see you for a bit. Do you have a minute now?” The speaker distanced herself from an action that could be viewed as peremptory. If the student construes her request in the past, then it is perceived as less urgent, and thus distant from her demand for the professor’s time.
	Past tense signals distance in other ways too. It has a detaching aspect as well, where the vantage point is from the participants’ point of view. It implies that “the people other than the speaker who at a certain place (there) and a certain time (then) were participants in the event” (45). In Bella’s analysis, deictic tense and the shift in focus between distance and relevance, shows a cognitive pragmatic system that works for both standard uses (now, then, here, there) and extended uses (past and present tense) of deixis in Greek. 
	She claims that tenses carry pragmatic nuances, such as attitude, evaluation, and point of view. Conceptually, present tense encodes absence of distance and presence of relevance, while past tense points to the opposite. A study of how tense communicates distance and point of view may be a worthwhile and interesting pursuit. In light of Levinson (2003), Bella’s tenses in Modern Greek may fit into his conceptual frames of reference, with present tense as a viewer-centered frame, and past as object (or participant)-centered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, your want for tense examples reminded me of a paper I read last year. Spyridoula Bella published an article in the Journal of Greek Linguistics entitled: Cognitive motivation and Pragmatic functions of the Greek deictics (2005). </p>
<p>Bella writes, “in extended functions [of deixis] the traditional notions of proximity and distance are interpreted as metaphorical mappings from the physical to the conceptual domain” (40). Using relevance and distance, and both standard and extended uses of deictic elements, Bella discusses deictic tense in Modern Greek (40).<br />
	With examples from natural speech, she argues that present tense encodes prominence because the content is considered salient between speaker and audience. She examines situations such as one in which her co-worker used present tense to tell her about a man she liked, but past tense to explain who the same man was to another co-worker. The “proximal” present brings the subject toward deictic centre because it is shared information between the speaker and Bella. She used past tense to encode distant, less relevant information to the second co-worker because the content was not salient to their relationship.<br />
	In another case, which I found to be prominent in English as well, Bella describes how the past tense is used to distance information, thus communicating politeness in a sensitive context. A student visits a professor’s office during non-office hours, the student addresses the professor in this way: “I wanted to see you for a bit. Do you have a minute now?” The speaker distanced herself from an action that could be viewed as peremptory. If the student construes her request in the past, then it is perceived as less urgent, and thus distant from her demand for the professor’s time.<br />
	Past tense signals distance in other ways too. It has a detaching aspect as well, where the vantage point is from the participants’ point of view. It implies that “the people other than the speaker who at a certain place (there) and a certain time (then) were participants in the event” (45). In Bella’s analysis, deictic tense and the shift in focus between distance and relevance, shows a cognitive pragmatic system that works for both standard uses (now, then, here, there) and extended uses (past and present tense) of deixis in Greek.<br />
	She claims that tenses carry pragmatic nuances, such as attitude, evaluation, and point of view. Conceptually, present tense encodes absence of distance and presence of relevance, while past tense points to the opposite. A study of how tense communicates distance and point of view may be a worthwhile and interesting pursuit. In light of Levinson (2003), Bella’s tenses in Modern Greek may fit into his conceptual frames of reference, with present tense as a viewer-centered frame, and past as object (or participant)-centered.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Runge</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-1431</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Runge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-1431</guid>
		<description>Rod, I spoke with Porter briefly at SBL regarding his view of markedness compared to that of Zwicky, Comrie and Lyons; and about the concept of &quot;frontground&quot; in his grounding model. I only read Wallace&#039;s work Saturday, so I have not spoken with him in person. I discussed each issue I was aware of at that time. He confirmed that I was correctly understanding his positions. 

On contrastive substitution, I am taking his written work to be representative of his view on the matter. His most recent article &quot;Prominence: an overview&quot; goes a long way toward clarifying his understanding of such issues compared to how he frames things in &quot;Verbal Aspect.&quot; He is far less tentative, removing room for questions I previously had. I read that article on Friday, so there was no opportunity to discuss it.

I have proposed a paper in the BGLL section to present these issues. I am in the process of writing a detailed article which will allow for a detailed response and dialogue. 

Did these questions come up in preparation of your &quot;Temporal Deixis&quot; volume?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rod, I spoke with Porter briefly at SBL regarding his view of markedness compared to that of Zwicky, Comrie and Lyons; and about the concept of &#8220;frontground&#8221; in his grounding model. I only read Wallace&#8217;s work Saturday, so I have not spoken with him in person. I discussed each issue I was aware of at that time. He confirmed that I was correctly understanding his positions. </p>
<p>On contrastive substitution, I am taking his written work to be representative of his view on the matter. His most recent article &#8220;Prominence: an overview&#8221; goes a long way toward clarifying his understanding of such issues compared to how he frames things in &#8220;Verbal Aspect.&#8221; He is far less tentative, removing room for questions I previously had. I read that article on Friday, so there was no opportunity to discuss it.</p>
<p>I have proposed a paper in the BGLL section to present these issues. I am in the process of writing a detailed article which will allow for a detailed response and dialogue. </p>
<p>Did these questions come up in preparation of your &#8220;Temporal Deixis&#8221; volume?</p>
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		<title>By: Rod Decker</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-1430</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod Decker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-1430</guid>
		<description>Have you talked to Porter about his take on this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you talked to Porter about his take on this?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2010/03/on-contrastive-substitution-and-the-greek-verb/comment-page-1/#comment-1429</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=1075#comment-1429</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s my own post on a similar issue from last May:

http://evepheso.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/remoteness-tense-in-english-and-greek/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s my own post on a similar issue from last May:</p>
<p><a href="http://evepheso.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/remoteness-tense-in-english-and-greek/" rel="nofollow">http://evepheso.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/remoteness-tense-in-english-and-greek/</a></p>
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