Comments on: Introducing new entities, again http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2009/07/introducing-new-entities-again/ Removing the mystery from discourse grammar Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:49:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Steve Runge http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2009/07/introducing-new-entities-again/comment-page-1/#comment-505 Steve Runge Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:09:19 +0000 http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=593#comment-505 I know, I know, I just couldn't resist the temptation so say something, tongue in my cheek and all that. I know, I know, I just couldn’t resist the temptation so say something, tongue in my cheek and all that.

]]> By: Carl Conrad http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2009/07/introducing-new-entities-again/comment-page-1/#comment-504 Carl Conrad Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:06:45 +0000 http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=593#comment-504 It wasn't my intention to say that the Marcan wording is superior to the Matthaean, apart from phrasing of the apodosis. Luke 17:5 is in fact more awkward than either of the parallels. It wasn’t my intention to say that the Marcan wording is superior to the Matthaean, apart from phrasing of the apodosis. Luke 17:5 is in fact more awkward than either of the parallels.

]]> By: Steve Runge http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2009/07/introducing-new-entities-again/comment-page-1/#comment-503 Steve Runge Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:57:37 +0000 http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=593#comment-503 It must be a sign of the Apocalypse, Carl, you claiming Markan wording is superior to Matthean! I agree that Mark strengthens the claim of Jesus by having both the positive and negative statements about belief. I will be talking about ways writers can mitigate commands in one of the next posts. One way is to move from the direct second-person to an indirect generic third-person. Thanks for pointing to the B-Greek dialogue. It must be a sign of the Apocalypse, Carl, you claiming Markan wording is superior to Matthean! I agree that Mark strengthens the claim of Jesus by having both the positive and negative statements about belief. I will be talking about ways writers can mitigate commands in one of the next posts. One way is to move from the direct second-person to an indirect generic third-person. Thanks for pointing to the B-Greek dialogue.

]]> By: Carl Conrad http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2009/07/introducing-new-entities-again/comment-page-1/#comment-502 Carl Conrad Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:37:56 +0000 http://www.ntdiscourse.org/?p=593#comment-502 Grammar wnderful? Well, grammatical constructions can certainly make one wonder; τὸ θαυμάζειν, says Aristotle, is the wellspring of philosophy. In my opinion, Mark 11:23 is not as awkward as it may seem (we very recently discussed this passage on B-Greek (my comments: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2009-July/049648.html). The ὅς ἂν + subjunctive construction is standard Koine for a generalization and is equivalent to ἐάν τις + subjunctive = "if anybody ... " ="anybody who ... " The admonition ἔχετε πίστιν in the immediately preceding verse sets the stage for the conditional construction of verse 23. Matthew seems to have taken his cue from Mark's ἔχετε πίστιν and used it to reshape the protasis and apodosis of the condition into the more colloquial second-person generalizing formulation: ἐὰν ἔχητε πίστιν καὶ μὴ διακριθῆτε ... On the other hand, I'm not so sure that Matthew's final one-word apodosis γενήσεται is as clear as Mark's ἀλλὰ πιστεύῃ ὅτι ὃ λαλεῖ γίνεται, ἔσται αὐτῷ. Revision and careful proofing requires considerable effort. Grammar wnderful? Well, grammatical constructions can certainly make one wonder; τὸ θαυμάζειν, says Aristotle, is the wellspring of philosophy.

In my opinion, Mark 11:23 is not as awkward as it may seem (we very recently discussed this passage on B-Greek (my comments: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2009-July/049648.html). The ὅς ἂν + subjunctive construction is standard Koine for a generalization and is equivalent to ἐάν τις + subjunctive = “if anybody … ” =”anybody who … ” The admonition ἔχετε πίστιν in the immediately preceding verse sets the stage for the conditional construction of verse 23.

Matthew seems to have taken his cue from Mark’s ἔχετε πίστιν and used it to reshape the protasis and apodosis of the condition into the more colloquial second-person generalizing formulation: ἐὰν ἔχητε πίστιν καὶ μὴ διακριθῆτε … On the other hand, I’m not so sure that Matthew’s final one-word apodosis γενήσεται is as clear as Mark’s ἀλλὰ πιστεύῃ ὅτι ὃ λαλεῖ γίνεται, ἔσται αὐτῷ. Revision and careful proofing requires considerable effort.

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